This week, Alex sits down with Cumberland County Deputy District Attorney Jen Ackerman.
AS 0:06
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Serra Speaks. I am joined today by Jennifer Ackerman, the Deputy District Attorney in Cumberland County. Hello, Jen.
JA 0:16
Hello. Thank you for having me.
AS 0:18
Thank you for joining us. I am very excited to be here in the Cumberland County Courthouse. So we are on the road today in Portland and not in our normal venue of our offices in Augusta. So here we are in the great city of Portland. I am really excited. Now in full disclosure, you and I have known each other for a minute.
JA 0:40
20 Plus, yeah, it's been a while.
AS 0:44
So we met at Maine Law and I fell in love with you instantly. And I was like, you're gonna be one of my best friends for the rest of my life. And you're like, okay, that's awkward, but that's fine. But you were always one of those people that knew exactly what you wanted to do from the jump, like you knew that you wanted to be a prosecutor? Period.
JA 1:05
Right.
AS 1:06
Tell me about that. How did you know?
JA 1:08
Um, that's a good question. I don't, you know, at 13 that's when it started coming out of my mouth that I wanted to be a prosecutor. And you know, I don't know if I saw it on TV, or if I saw a movie or something. But something said in me that that's what I want to do for the rest of my life. And so it began kind of clicking in that direction, as the years went by. So everything I did, from there on out through college, then right off to law school, right after college graduation, because, you know, I wasn't wasting any time. You know, I knew what at where I was going. So that that was the plan.
AS 1:41
And our class was at Maine Law, there's a, it's an older group, it's not your traditional law school group that does go right out of college, and you were like one of two students that had come right from undergrad to law school.
JA 1:57
Right.
AS 1:57
And you were like, the only one our entire class to do what they want to do. Because even older folks, you know, have no idea.
JA 2:04
Yeah, and you know, that I think is a better situation to kind of have the more life experience and to be able to say like, this is really yeah, this is really what I want to do. I was lucky to go through and now on the other side, 20 plus years later, I can say that it was the right decision. And, you know, I didn't kind of start down a path that I was going to be unhappy with. But yeah, it was it was a, it wasn't hard. I mean, I picked Maine, I graduated from Old Dominion University down in Virginia, where I grew up. And I applied to Maine Law, because really, the cover of the catalog was gorgeous with the lighthouse and the cobblestone streets and I had never been to Maine. But it looked beautiful. And I figured, you know, if I was gonna put myself through three years of some difficult, you know, tasks ahead, I wanted to do it in a place that looked really nice. So I got accepted and I drove up here in February, which was not a good idea, with my Ford Explorer with two wheel drive, FYI, not good in the snow, and came up, saw it and sealed the deal and then started in the fall. So yeah, I didn't know anyone. But I quickly realized that you were a standout personality that I was drawn to, or that just seemed like overlay. I was like, I want to be her friend. And look at us now.
AS 3:26
Look at us now. I can't believe.. Isn't it crazy? We're at the point in our career where we actually are doing this kind of work, you know, like, talking with people about where we are in our careers. And we have something to say now, we were the kids not a minute ago.
JA 3:41
I know. And I remember starting as a prosecutor at 24. And no, having women in the office that were 20 plus years on and being like, Wow, I can't imagine what it would be like to be at that point, and how awesome that would be and how much they must know. And you know, and all that. And now to say that's the situation I'm in where I'm that 20 years later, is pretty mind blowing.
AS 4:05
So you did walk into an interesting situation here because the woman that was in charge of the district attorney's office, Stephanie Anderson, is highly regarded and had an established career and had been here and made, I'm sure a lot and blazed the trail if you will, for women to come into the office. What was it like having that kind of strong female lead?
JA 4:28
I absolutely lucked out in that. I mean, she is an incredible human being. I mean, not only an incredible leader and prosecutor but just a wonderful person. And, you know, she still remains one of my very good friends and you know, to if I need advice, whether it be life advice, career advice, you know, I call her and she's one of those people, a lot like you in some respects that you pick up the phone and you ask for that, you know, advice. They give it freely, openly.And then you think about it, you're like, that's really good. Like, I never would have thought of that or, you know, give me a perspective to really chew on. And it's so helpful and like, you know, that's, there's some people that come into your life that just stay and they and you're like, wow, I'm lucky. And you are one of those people to me, and she is certainly as well.
AS 5:19
Jenny!
JA 5:20
It's true.
AS 5:20
I'm gonna buy her a massive Starbucks latte, or a Bard coffee latte in a minute.
JA 5:26
You know, you just you, you know, they talk about soulmates, right? I mean, a romantic partner, well there are soulmate friends...
AS 5:32
Totally.
JA 5:32
You absolutely are. And she is to me as well.
AS 5:35
I feel the same way. And she's,I don't know Stephanie, but I always felt so happy for you that you have that. Because so many women enter their careers and are still to this day, the first woman in this role. We just interviewed Katie Doherty. Yeah, who's the president of the Kennebec Valley Chamber of Commerce in Episode One of this podcast, and she talks a lot about how she showed up and there were no maternity leave rules really, for her position. So that she had to it wasn't that the men purposefully did anything with intentional bias but it was just a lack of awareness. And so I was so so happy for you that you had her.
JA 6:22
I mean, she, we, I was very lucky in that I had a trial with her. I second seeded her in a very public publicized trial in 2008. I think we tried in 2009 but it started in 2008. And it was almost a two week long trial. And, you know, got a lot of press, we had out of state lawyer from Boston that were defending this guy. And, you know, I was so lucky, because I got to, you know, sit and watch her in action, but also feel like I had the biggest security blanket I could ever need or want as a young lawyer, right? Like, this woman sitting next to me who, in my mind, nothing could go wrong, I could do nothing wrong with her by my side. So, you know, to be able to have that, you know, I was only what, six, seven years on at that point. And to have that type of trial with her right next to me, and she trusting me to give the opening statement and to, you know, do the cross examination of some of the really key witnesses. It was an incredible experience. And there was no way I was ever going to be nervous or scared of how standing in front of a jury again, because I had her right there with me. So yeah, I was so very lucky to have her. Absolutely.
AS 7:35
Tell me about where you feel the legal field is right now. Like men and women and non binary and you know what I mean? Where are we with all of the genders and in your office? What's your breakdown?
JA 7:53
Yeah, well, we at different points have been fairly heavily weighted with the women prosecutors in the office, we've had, we've added a few men along the way. So in some respects, we've been different than other law firms. I mean, we're one of the largest law firms in Portland, I know if you don't think about it that way. Right.
AS 8:11
Right. And how many are in your office?
JA 8:13
So we've got 21 now. And for a long time, it was heavily female. And I think that was in a lot of ways because it's a government job. So the the hours are well known, right? You 8 to 430, Monday through Friday. So it was, it is, you know, very conducive to a female, you know, a mother's, you know, schedule, I think that's what people thought, you know, weekends and nights happen, but they don't certainly don't happen, like you would find in a large law firm, where you're working billing, like 80 hours a week and all that. So, you know, and the office has always been very family focused, too. So times needed, you know, to get out to go to a baseball game or something like that, that's not an issue. So that I think, attracted a lot of women to the field and have stayed. And, you know, I think I'm biased, of course, but I think women do make really good prosecutors, the perspective that we can give to a situation is definitely a unique one that you're not going to find, I think from a male perspective. You know, and it also is softens over time with the years of experience you get right, your perspective changes.
AS 9:23
Why is that do you think? In what ways? Talk more about that? Is the female perspective different when it comes to prosecution than the male perspective?
JA 9:30
Well, I think you know, women, you know, you hear or you know, think we have kind of a more more of emotional quotient, right? We have more of that than necessarily men. That's the stereotype. Yeah, that may be true, that may not be true. But, you know, the female perspective of being a mother, of being a sister or being you know, a daughter, I think brings so much to the table when you're dealing with someone who's got drug addiction, whether that addiction came from being victimized as a child, or victimized by a family member, you know, it's it's just a unique perspective that we can bring to the table that I think, you know, it's just a different life experience than what men have.
AS 10:14
So I very, very briefly clerked at a law firm. And I'll never forget, there was feel like it was an arraignment, maybe it wasn't, maybe it was like a pre trial hearing. And I worked for the defense attorney. And I'll never forget, we had to the there was a concern about bias. So I can't remember what procedural would have been. But anyway, we had to dress the witnesses, not in their orange jumpsuits, but in suits, street clothes. I'll never forget the young man being walked through the hall to get to the courtroom. And the mother of one of the young men came running up to him and hugged him and started crying uncontrollably. And she turned to me and she said, I've never seen him in a tie before.
JA 11:05
Yeah.
AS 11:06
Oh, my God. And he was a witness who was already in jail on another case, like on another conviction. And that floored me, that moment of what is this mother going through? Just it was just the mom of a witness to what another matter? So you must, that must impact you, as well.
JA 11:27
Yeah. I mean, we, we see people, I mean, no one, comes through the system for a positive reason, right? They're not here, because something good happened to them, whether it be a victim, a defendant, a witness, a police officer, you know, no one's here, because they want to be here, necessarily. So we see people in their worst of times that were the hardest parts of their lives. So we see some really human, you know, topics and really personal stories, personal information, human moments in court. Absolutely, we see that. And it definitely brings you brings it front and center, like we are all human, we all want the same things at our core, right? We want to be safe, we want to be happy, we want to love someone we want to be loved. I mean, those are all of the things that we all agree on. Right? So people go about it in different ways. Sometimes, you know, and, you know, use substances, alcohol or drugs to try and get those things. But yeah, I mean, it's it's this this practice, criminal law practice is very human, right. It's not about statute books, tax books, or, you know, case law books. It's, you know, real life on a day to day basis. So, yeah, it's it's certainly unique, every case is different, every circumstance, every reason is different. Why people end up here. But bringing a perspective of life experience, and the female perspective, I think does help.
AS 12:58
What do you see in the larger legal community that walks through the courthouse doors? Do you see more women than when you first started practicing? Or do you sit at the same?
JA 13:07
I do, I see that more women are entering, you know, the field as as criminal defense attorneys. I mean, it was when I started, there were just a couple of female defense attorneys that we would see in here. So I mean, I wouldn't say it's half, I don't think it's half that we have men and women, defense attorneys, but it's definitely trending with more women joining that field of work.
AS 13:31
Why do you think that is?
JA 13:33
Well, you know, I don't know if it came from a view that, you know, dealing with criminal defenses is hard. And, you know, they can be difficult. They can be crude, they can be rude. You know, it's, I don't know if that's where it comes from. And if there are some women that don't want to put up with that, and then there's some that have no issue whatsoever, you know, are tougher than many of the men that come in here. So, darn right, you know, so, yeah, no, that's definitely trending in the direction of more females entering the defense field, for sure.
AS 14:09
It sounds like compassion is an important element to being a good prosecutor, from what you're saying. And to some degree, I'm imagining part of what takes a good defense attorney some compassion to
JA 14:26
Yeah, absolutely.
AS 14:27
Talk to me about that. Talk to me about like where does that compassion come from, how do you maintain it? How do you stay human in the midst of a system that many think is, you know, the cards are stacked against them when the system?
JA 14:41
Well, you know, it's a balanced sense of compassion, right? It's, you know, you first and foremost public safety. That's what I'm most concerned about as a prosecutor. So you know, if people are not safe, that's, that's a problem. That's where I have to act. But there are certain number of cases that we get in here that it's not a public safety issue. But the person is, you know, stealing from a store or you know, doing something that, you know, they're going to end up going to jail for, and what drove them to do that. So a good defense attorney will tell me the story, tell me what it is that led them to do what they did, why are they doing this? Is it a mental health diagnosis? Is it a drug or alcohol addiction? And God are the days where you just ignore that and you say, lock them up? Like that is not our view. We don't we don't prosecute cases that way. We know that's not the answer to solving the crime rate that is absolutely in the wrong direction. So, you know, we try and get to the root causes. I know it sounds kind of opposite of what most people think. But that's, that's part of our job, we absolutely look at that as part of our job, we would be irresponsible as the prosecution to just ignore those things and not try and get to the root problem so that we can get them addressed. So the person doesn't come back. We don't want them back in the system, right?
AS 15:58
Does drug courts still exist? Tell me about drug court.
JA 16:01
We do have drug court in Maine, we in Cumberland County,
AS 16:04
Explain what that is, what drug court is.
JA 16:04
Well it started here back in the 90s. Stephanie started it, and it's gone up, it's taken various turns over the years. And there are I think there are drug courts and other counties, but we have it here. Basically, it's a team, a drug court team of people, including a prosecutor, a judge, case managers and defense attorney, probation officer. It's basically a team that works with someone who's got a significant substance abuse, and oftentimes, it's a dual diagnosis. So we've got mental health and substance abuse diagnosis for these people, and trying to get to the root problem, you know, with treatment with whether that be through court orders, you know, but also, it's a willingness on their part to step up and say, I want to be living a clean and sober crime free life. And I'm committed and I will sign this contract, and do what the court tells me to do in order to make that happen. So it's all these people coming together really to support one person. And so it's a small caseload. It's about usually between 20 to 25 defendants that are high risk, high needs that need that type of special attention.
AS 17:17
And what's the success rate, like compared to other , traditional track?
JA 17:23
You know, it's had very, it's hard to say what successes because we've had people that have graduated from drug court only to turn around and overdose and die within weeks after graduation. You know, we've had people we've had success stories where people graduated, and went on to have a very successful, you know, substance free life, crime free life. So it's, it just it's very dependent. And you have to define what you mean by success, too. So that's, that's a moving target, to some extent.
AS 17:49
Talk to me about race. We have experienced so much in the past year, as a nation, and there's so much discussion around race issues, law enforcement, all of it. How do you handle being a prosecutor in that landscape, and whether it's the, you know, verdict and the Derrick Chauvin case, or the appeal that's happening now, all these different? How do you stay focused in your job amidst all that? And do you see? Are there moments that you see race rising up to a systemic problem here in Maine?
JA 18:39
In Maine? Well, that's the question, is it happening in Maine? And I think what we need to come from a place of awareness, right, that's implicit bias does exist, that it could be in the system, it could be in the players in the system. And I think the first step in addressing implicit bias is being aware that it could be there. And so you know, we've, we've been through implicit bias training week long trainings over a course of a year, so multiple week long trainings over the course of a year that went back 10 years ago.
AS 19:14
Were they helpful, were they insightful?
JA 19:16
Absolutely. They're helpful. I mean, there needs to be a discussion, right, and a, an action plan, if it's there, it needs to be addressed. So that the first part is always understanding what it is recognizing that it's there, and that you have to take steps to try and avoid any type of bias. And that's our role as a prosecutor. That's our, you know, oath as a prosecutor to not be bias, whether it be you know, because somebody's got purple hair, or they're black or they're white, or they're female or male or whatever it is, you know, bias has no part in the system. I mean, that's what our oath is. It does it exist absolutely in our system. And we've seen that you know, over the years with various things that have happened all over the world. Have I seen it to a point where I've seen it in other places here in Portland? No, I haven't. In fact, I think Portland PD is very aware and proactive. And we have body worn cameras that Portland officers wear, and they are almost always running. So, you know, say like, is it happening? And we just don't know about it? Well, we've got the body worn camera, we watch those to see if it's happening. So there's got to be that check, right of like, Okay, well, what happened? Was there more to this story, the first step is being aware that it exists. And, you know, once you you can't ignore it, obviously, once you're aware, you're, you're going to be on the lookout for those things. So I think we were very lucky to live in Portland and not have the the issues that we see across the country. The law enforcement officers I work with every day, you know, I feel very confident that they're not out there doing those things. And we've got the body worn camera that shows that just that too.
AS 20:58
So talk to me about who your role models are. I know, we spoke about Stephanie Anderson, who else to look up to either within the judicial system, or throughout the course of your, your life, it could be people, you've never met most of my role models or people that I've never met. Yeah, but I'm a little fangirl to them.
JA 21:18
You know, strong women in powerful positions that you know, you support and you just like, are wicked proud of. I mean, they're everywhere. And I've got a million of them. Not a woman, but one of my biggest role models, my dad. Absolutely.
AS 21:34
Tell me about your dad.
JA 21:36
So my dad, and he passed away six years ago now. But he was we were two peas in a pod, if you could say that. He went to the Naval Academy graduated there and join the Navy. And he was a an F 14 pilot for 22 years. He was I like to say he was the original Tom Cruise. Yeah, he was what they base Top Gun on. And I'm not wrong. People have told me that. So he had an amazing, amazing career in the Navy. And like, I could not be more proud of what he did. And so his service there in the Navy, then he joined Federal Express as a pilot, so he spent another 20 years there, he flew until he couldn't fly anymore, until the FAA said you're too old. So yeah, he's been I mean, he, he was one of those people that, you know, just like everybody's dad, right? You'd be you need something advice, words of wisdom, like, you call. I could call him and he could just tell me, everything I needed to hear. And sometimes, you know, tell me the advice that I didn't want to hear but needed to hear. And so it's funny, because now that he's gone, I can, I will hear myself saying things to my son, or to someone else, and I will be reminded of him. And so I always say like, that's the best gift that he left behind is because we I have these little memories that pop up, like, that's something my dad would say or do and I you know, he's that's kind of the gift that keeps giving is like, I'm still his daughter. I'm still proud, you know, to be his daughter. So to hear those things. It's like, wow, he's up there, right.
AS 23:15
Your dad had a way about him and I remember him coming into our Dartmouth Street law school apartment.
JA 23:21
Yeah.
AS 23:21
And just he's just a gentleman. And he just really was truly an Officer and a Gentleman. Yeah, he just had this way about him.
JA 23:28
Yeah, he was very elegant. Yeah, I mean, he was just a class act. You know, he was old school. He didn't like it when people curse around women, right? And he would tell you that he didn't like it when children were called called kids. Like he just he was that kind of a guy. And so yeah, I mean, he wasn't a perfect person. He certainly made mistakes over the over the years, that he immediately, you know, can tell you about and say, This is what I should have done, or I shouldn't have done this. And, you know, he was very humble and had a lot of humility in that regard. But yeah, he's a pretty amazing, amazing person.
AS 24:02
You're a lot like him from like, having known both of you I can firmly say you're a lot like your dad.
JA 24:09
Well, that's a great compliment.
AS 24:10
It's true. What What gives you hope? What is it that gets you up every morning? You have a tough job, tougher than a whole lot of us what gets you up every morning, and gives you hope?
JA 24:24
Well, we talked we started this off by talking about me becoming a prosecutor at 13. What did I want to do? And behind all that was I wanted to help people that was you know, everybody's ideal of like, Oh, I want to help people. I want to go to school. I want to go do this because I want to help someone. And I've learned over the years like this isn't this job isn't helping anyone. I mean, in some respects, like, like I said, nobody's here because they want to be here, but helping someone when they're in one of the darkest points of their life, whether that be a defendant or a victim. That's what gives me hope. I mean, I've had defendants reach out to me years later, and say You know, you gave me that break that changed my life and turned my life around. And I've had a victim who has said, you know, over the years, like, thank you for, for putting him away, you know, and, and going to a victim prior to trial and saying like, I'm gonna give it everything I have, we're gonna do this together. And we will we will get on the other side of this and getting that person having that person's trust. I mean, that's a huge gift. It's huge responsibility. But, you know, it's one that I welcome. It's, it's what I'm here for. So to the extent that I can be that for someone in a tough, tough time in their life, in that sense, I guess I'm helping.
AS 25:42
Jen Ackerman, thank you so much for your time today.
JA 25:45
Thank you.
AS 25:46
As always, so insightful. And all spoken with such incredible passion. One question I do want to ask before we wrap up, what do you read? What do you listen to? What are your external sources? I asked everybody this question at the end of the podcast, and the answers go from rap music to The Wall Street Journal.
JA: So anyhow, 90s hip hop is definitely on Spotify in the rotation, but my podcast nowadays are usually related to fitness and health, you know, outside of my son and my husband. I'm a big CrossFit person. I'm in that cult and so I spend a lot of time listening to podcasts related to that health and nutrition. So that's most of my enjoyment time to Yeah, no, like heavy reading, just doing a lot of listening.
AS: That's awesome. Jen, thank you so much.
JA 26:37
Thanks for having me.
AS 26:43
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Serra Speaks where we talk with women about business, not about women in business. Please be sure to hit subscribe and stay tuned for upcoming episodes.